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From: "Carsten Burghardt" <burghardt@kde.org>
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Subject: Re: Why was the folder Properties dialog split up in 1.8?
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Malte S. Stretz sagte:
> Moin,
>
> I just looked the third time for some functionality in the folder
> Properties
> which was moved somewhere else... the new split of the Properties dialog
> is
> pretty counter-intuitive.  (It's in 1.8-rc1 but I guess there hasn't
> changed anything at this place.)
>
> Even though there's a tab view in the properties dialog, it now only
> contains the tab "General". To reach the expiry settings you now have to
> choose "Expire..." from the context menu.  In the Folder menu, only the
> old
> "Expire" command which doesn't open the configuration dialog is available.
> On the contrary, the "Mailing List Management" I use pretty often is only
> available via the Folder menu.
>
> To me, both dialogs are part of the "configuration" of a folder and the
> first place I look for such a thing is the Properties dialog.  (The same
> is
> actually true for the threading and HTML settings which IMO should be
> moved
> from the Folder menu to the Properties dialog, too.)  I just noticed that
> there's an "Assign Shortcut" (why is that in the context menu but the
> Mailing List Management isn't?) -- IMO that one should be in the
> Properties
> dialog, too.
>
> Was there some good reason to split this dialog up that I miss?  To
> summarize, I think all folder "settings" and handler belong to the
> Properties dialog, that would not only give the user one place to look for
> settings but also shrink the menus, especially the context menu.

The reason for the changes to the properties dialog is an usability study:
http://www.openusability.org/reports/view.php?group_id=55&repid=43

We agreed that the new layout is much better and thus changed it.


Carsten

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Subject: Re: Why was the folder Properties dialog split up in 1.8?
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On Wednesday 09 March 2005 16:09 CET Carsten Burghardt wrote:
> Malte S. Stretz sagte:
> >[...]
> > Was there some good reason to split this dialog up that I miss?  To
> > summarize, I think all folder "settings" and handler belong to the
> > Properties dialog, that would not only give the user one place to look
> > for settings but also shrink the menus, especially the context menu.
>
> The reason for the changes to the properties dialog is an usability
> study: http://www.openusability.org/reports/view.php?group_id=55&repid=43

While I agree on many parts of that "study" (were any of those changes 
tested by actual users or is it just what the three authors thought was 
better?), the split of the properties dialog is IMO nonsense and even 
contradicts what the authors wanted to achieve.

That's of course only my opinion but I now (try to) work with that new 
dialogs for about a week and still I try to find stuff in the properties 
dialog which aren't there anymore.

If I may comment on some parts of the study:

| 1. Current State
| The folder properties dialog of Kmail is rather confusing and suffering
| from a load of settings. For most users and for most cases, only essential
| functions are relevant. The other functions distract from the essential
| ones, which leads to a visual clutter and confusion. 

That's right.  But by moving the options around, you won't have less 
options, just move the clutter somewhere else.

| 2.1 Amount of settings
| The first step is to reduce the amount of settings that a “normal” user is
| confronted with in the properties dialog. Issues that either require deep
| technical insight or that is relevant only in 1% of cases should be kept
| “out of sight”, but still accessible, or put to another place. Reducing 

How often do you change the settings of your folders?  (I used the dialogs 
pretty much the last days because I used the KDE update as a chance to also 
clean up my folder structure and unsubscribe from some mailinglists I don't 
read anymore.)  Normally you change neither the mailinglist settings nor 
the expiry settings very often.

So instead of "hiding" (in the meaning of removing it from the daily used 
interface, see below) those rarely used options, you instead move them into 
the menus, adding to their complexity.

And if you really need to change some of those options, where do you look 
first?  Maybe it's just me, but if I look for some kind of settings, I open 
up a configure dialog.  And for the folders, the Properties dialog is more 
or less the configure dialog.

So instead of moving stuff "out of sight" of the "normal" user (maybe I'm no 
"normal" user, but on "normal" days I don't look at the Properties dialog 
very often), you move the stuff *into* sight by cluttering the menus.

> We agreed that the new layout is much better and thus changed it.

Unfortuanetely did you only apply the bad suggestions and left out the good 
ones :)  The "Mailing List Management" dialog still has the old confusing 
interface, the properties dialog still has a single "General" tab, the 
context menu still contains "Compact Folder", even an "Assign Shortcut" was 
added there.  "Compact Folder" and "Expire" are not grouped together, 
instead "New Message to Mailinglist" is below the same separator where the 
configuration stuff is.

If I should write a "study" about this, I'd actually go exactly the other 
way this one went with the Expire dialog:  Split the "configure" part and 
the "action" part.  Like the old expiry settings were:  Settings in the 
Properties dialog, the action directly via the menu (or some separate 
"folder maintenance" dialog where also the Compact action and possibly a 
backup action could be added).

The latter should be applied to the mailinglist management, too:  Settings 
in the Properties dialog but calling the handler from somewhere else, maybe 
that maintenance dialog I suggested above.

The idea behind that suggestion is:  Configure once (and in one place), use 
often.  But I'm no usability expert, just a user, so I'm probably 
completely wrong.

Cheers,
Malte

-- 
[SGT] Simon G. Tatham: "How to Report Bugs Effectively"
      <http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html>
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On Wednesday March 9 2005 07:58, Malte S. Stretz wrote:
> Moin,
>
> I just looked the third time for some functionality in the folder
> Properties which was moved somewhere else... the new split of the
> Properties dialog is pretty counter-intuitive.  (It's in 1.8-rc1 but I
> guess there hasn't changed anything at this place.)

I also had a hard time finding the mailing list management. I agree that th=
e=20
new layout is not intuitive.

=2D-=20

cheers,
Jakob

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On Wednesday 09 March 2005 20:39, Malte S. Stretz wrote:
> On Wednesday 09 March 2005 16:09 CET Carsten Burghardt wrote:
> > Malte S. Stretz sagte:
> > >[...]
> > > Was there some good reason to split this dialog up that I miss?  To
> > > summarize, I think all folder "settings" and handler belong to the
> > > Properties dialog, that would not only give the user one place to look
> > > for settings but also shrink the menus, especially the context menu.
> >
> > The reason for the changes to the properties dialog is an usability
> > study: http://www.openusability.org/reports/view.php?group_id=3D55&repi=
d=3D43
>
> While I agree on many parts of that "study" (were any of those changes
> tested by actual users or is it just what the three authors thought was
> better?), the split of the properties dialog is IMO nonsense and even
> contradicts what the authors wanted to achieve.
>
> That's of course only my opinion but I now (try to) work with that new
> dialogs for about a week and still I try to find stuff in the properties
> dialog which aren't there anymore.
>
> If I may comment on some parts of the study:
> | 1. Current State
> | The folder properties dialog of Kmail is rather confusing and suffering
> | from a load of settings. For most users and for most cases, only
> | essential functions are relevant. The other functions distract from the
> | essential ones, which leads to a visual clutter and confusion.
>
> That's right.  But by moving the options around, you won't have less
> options, just move the clutter somewhere else.

Where it is less visible, yes. Exactly the point.

> | 2.1 Amount of settings
> | The first step is to reduce the amount of settings that a =E2=80=9Cnorm=
al=E2=80=9D user
> | is confronted with in the properties dialog. Issues that either require
> | deep technical insight or that is relevant only in 1% of cases should be
> | kept =E2=80=9Cout of sight=E2=80=9D, but still accessible, or put to an=
other place.
> | Reducing
>
> How often do you change the settings of your folders?  (I used the dialogs
> pretty much the last days because I used the KDE update as a chance to al=
so
> clean up my folder structure and unsubscribe from some mailinglists I don=
't
> read anymore.)  Normally you change neither the mailinglist settings nor
> the expiry settings very often.
>
> So instead of "hiding" (in the meaning of removing it from the daily used
> interface, see below) those rarely used options, you instead move them in=
to
> the menus, adding to their complexity.
>
> And if you really need to change some of those options, where do you look
> first?  Maybe it's just me, but if I look for some kind of settings, I op=
en
> up a configure dialog.  And for the folders, the Properties dialog is more
> or less the configure dialog.
>
> So instead of moving stuff "out of sight" of the "normal" user (maybe I'm
> no "normal" user, but on "normal" days I don't look at the Properties
> dialog very often), you move the stuff *into* sight by cluttering the
> menus.

Any and all functionality should be availabe via menus, if for no other rea=
son=20
than accessibility. (We have not achieved that yet, but we're trying.) It's=
=20
arguable that the mailing list management belongs as a tab in the propertie=
s=20
dialog, but there is a tradeoff between meeting that expectation and avoidi=
ng=20
confusion for the majority of users for whom that functionality is esoteric=
=20
and confusing.=20

> > We agreed that the new layout is much better and thus changed it.
>
> Unfortuanetely did you only apply the bad suggestions and left out the go=
od
> ones :)  The "Mailing List Management" dialog still has the old confusing
> interface,

Because we didn't get around to fixing it yet. Fixing it got lower priority=
 as=20
it was more important to us to get the properties themselves cleaned up on=
=20
time for 3.4=20

> the properties dialog still has a single "General" tab

Unless you have imap or dimap account folders in which case there is also=20
"Access Control". The idea is to have that tab for local folders as well,=20
eventually, with permission information, similar to what Konqueror shows fo=
r=20
folders.

> instead "New Message to Mailinglist" is below the same separator where the
> configuration stuff is.

That's a bug.

> If I should write a "study" about this, I'd actually go exactly the other
> way this one went with the Expire dialog:  Split the "configure" part and
> the "action" part.  Like the old expiry settings were:  Settings in the
> Properties dialog, the action directly via the menu (or some separate
> "folder maintenance" dialog where also the Compact action and possibly a
> backup action could be added).

Expiry is a background action. It is usually not triggered explicitely and =
the=20
dialog only applies it on close as a matter of convenience. The entry in th=
e=20
=46older menu should also open the dialog, like the one in the RMB menu, I=
=20
guess.

> The latter should be applied to the mailinglist management, too:  Settings
> in the Properties dialog but calling the handler from somewhere else, may=
be
> that maintenance dialog I suggested above.

What handler? New Message to Mailinglist?

Till

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From kmail-devel-bounces-+danny.kukawka=web.de@kde.org Wed Mar  9 23:48:10 2005
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From: "Malte S. Stretz" <msquadrat.nospamplease@gmx.net>
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On Wednesday 09 March 2005 23:19 CET Till Adam wrote:
> On Wednesday 09 March 2005 20:39, Malte S. Stretz wrote:
> >[...]
> > That's of course only my opinion but I now (try to) work with that new
> > dialogs for about a week and still I try to find stuff in the
> > properties dialog which aren't there anymore.
> >
> > If I may comment on some parts of the study:
> > | 1. Current State
> > | The folder properties dialog of Kmail is rather confusing and
> > | suffering from a load of settings. For most users and for most cases,
> > | only essential functions are relevant. The other functions distract
> > | from the essential ones, which leads to a visual clutter and
> > | confusion.
> >
> > That's right.  But by moving the options around, you won't have less
> > options, just move the clutter somewhere else.
>
> Where it is less visible, yes. Exactly the point.

But my point is:  Where is it more visible:  In a dialog which you open once 
every few months or a menu on the main interface which gets longer and 
harder to scan quickly?  And even more important:  Where do you expect the 
option to be if you know it exists:  In a Configuration dialog or behind 
Yet Another Menu Entry in the Folder menu?

In the case of the Expiry settings it took me really long to find it because 
"Expire..." looks like some action to execute, not a setting.  In the end I 
noticed the three dots, the fact that it was in the context menu where 
normally the settings are and it was the only place where it could be 
hidden, but finding those options again took me almost half a week.

> >[...]
> > And if you really need to change some of those options, where do you
> > look first?  Maybe it's just me, but if I look for some kind of
> > settings, I open up a configure dialog.  And for the folders, the
> > Properties dialog is more or less the configure dialog.
> >
> > So instead of moving stuff "out of sight" of the "normal" user (maybe
> > I'm no "normal" user, but on "normal" days I don't look at the
> > Properties dialog very often), you move the stuff *into* sight by
> > cluttering the menus.
>
> Any and all functionality should be availabe via menus, if for no other
> reason than accessibility. (We have not achieved that yet, but we're
> trying.) It's arguable that the mailing list management belongs as a tab
> in the properties dialog, but there is a tradeoff between meeting that
> expectation and avoiding confusion for the majority of users for whom
> that functionality is esoteric and confusing.

Same argument as above applies.

>[...]
> Expiry is a background action. It is usually not triggered explicitely
> and the dialog only applies it on close as a matter of convenience. The
> entry in the Folder menu should also open the dialog, like the one in the
> RMB menu, I guess.

Isn't "Compact Folder" also a background operation?  And why is "Expire..." 
still in the context menu if it's used so rarely?  And shouldn't the one in 
the Folder menu then moved down to the settings part of the menu?  (Yes, I 
know, most of those are rhetoric questions pointing out not-yet-implemented 
stuff.)

Whatever, the expiry settings are still settings and thus (IMO) belong to 
the Properties (or better: Folder Configuration) dialog.

> > The latter should be applied to the mailinglist management, too: 
> > Settings in the Properties dialog but calling the handler from
> > somewhere else, maybe that maintenance dialog I suggested above.
>
> What handler? New Message to Mailinglist?

Whatever you can execute with the "Invoke Handler" button in the mailinglist 
dialog:  Subscribing (a chicken-and-egg problem actually), unsubscribing, 
accessing the archives, etc.

Cheers,
Malte

-- 
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      <http://www.chiark.greenend.org.uk/~sgtatham/bugs.html>
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Am Mittwoch 09 M=E4rz 2005 23:47 schrieb Malte S. Stretz:
> In the case of the Expiry settings it took me really long to find it
> because "Expire..." looks like some action to execute, not a setting.  In
> the end I noticed the three dots, the fact that it was in the context men=
u
> where normally the settings are and it was the only place where it could =
be
> hidden, but finding those options again took me almost half a week.

Hi Malte,

Just calm down a little bit. I was used to the old behavior as well and I w=
as=20
quite astonished the first time I've missed that mailing list stuff in the=20
properties dialog.
However, I've seen some usability studies in real life. I've seen people=20
dealing with KMail for the first time. They are the target auditorium.

Everybody knows (should know) that programmers are seldom wise conecrning=20
usability. That's why the usability team is supporting us. Don't let us sti=
ck=20
to the old habits, but lets make KMail better. It has been explained before=
=20
that the work hasn't been completed yet. There are edges as you've found ou=
t=20
and as Till wrote. But hey, that can be fixed for 3.4.1, can't it?

Regards,
Andreas

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